Is Improv Fake?

[Holmes]

I just read a thread on chicagoimprov.org about how some people really resist the notion that improv is improvised, think that there are scripts or that certain things are pre-planned, etc.

I've certainly gotten people asking (just to be sure, because they're impressed) whether it's improvised or if all of it is improvised, but I've never before really heard of people not believing.

I can especially understand the hesitancy and confusion, because there have been shows where it's not all improvised (where there's a framework), where planned-out characters improvise, and (especially on TV) short-form games have a not-improvised aspect and could certainly be edited to only show the best.

Have you ever had someone call Whose Line a crock?
Have you ever had someone not just question, but doubt that it's improvised?
Is this a wide-spread phenomenon? Should we really be stressing that it's improv, to prevent confusion and doubt?

What are your thoughts and experiences?

[benzado]

Whenever I am explaining What Exactly It Is We Do, I usually make an analogy to sports: when you watch a game you have no idea how it is going to turn out or what will happen next, but you all know the rules and what is a good or a bad play/move, and that's how it comes together. I'll never know for sure if people believe me, but when I make this analogy I feel like people "get" it more than any other way I've tried to explain it.

P.S. I don't usually post in the Philly forums but this didn't seem like a Philly-specific question.

[Holmes]

Originally Posted by benzado

Whenever I am explaining What Exactly It Is We Do, I usually make an analogy to sports: when you watch a game you have no idea how it is going to turn out or what will happen next, but you all know the rules and what is a good or a bad play/move, and that's how it comes together. I'll never know for sure if people believe me, but when I make this analogy I feel like people "get" it more than any other way I've tried to explain it.

P.S. I don't usually post in the Philly forums but this didn't seem like a Philly-specific question.

I'm happy to have non-Philly input, I just wanted to specifically involve the Philly crowd in the discussion.

Do you get people questioning it beforehand, prompting this kind of explanation and analogy?

[Stanton]

This girl said to me once that it isn't really improvised because we planned to do it. That is, we planned to do an improv show... not that we wrote it or anything like that, but the mere fact that we knew we were going to improvise meant that it wasn't improv.

I'm pretty sure she was kidding, but I had nothing to come back with...

[benzado]

Originally Posted by Holmes

Do you get people questioning it beforehand, prompting this kind of explanation and analogy?

Usually the conversation starts with a question like, "How do you know which people are going to do which parts?" I say, We don't! Then I explain how it works with the sports analogy, and usually the person is my friend, and so they either understand or only pretend to understand, and we continue to drink beer.

I've never tried to explain improv to somebody who was a total stranger with nothing invested in our continued relationship.

[mikelibrarian]

The first time I saw a longform improv show I was convinced that it was scripted because everything seemed so spot on. And this was after I had been taking some short form classes, probably about three at that point.

I've heard people comment that the improv group Johnny Lunchpail was scripted. I think that is because they don't ask for suggestions, their opening which is a bunch of guys in Dickies uniforms clocking in to work looks as though it was pre-planned and their transitions are organic rather than sweep edit then start new scene.

[Loki]

I've heard that a few times with people watching premise-based improv, like Bassprov, BWP, Code Duello.

[Holmes]

I'm just wondering how much the basic concept of "improv" needs to be stressed.
I think people will like or dislike something regardless of whether it's planned.

I'm just wondering if people in the audience are paying more attention to what seems planned than to what is funny. And if anyone is annoyed or turned off by some aspect that makes it seem scripted or leads to confusion.

I appreciate the details about what leads to confusion: pre-planned characters, set frameworks, suggestion-use, edit style.
A lot of this is why I, personally, like to do as little planned or formatted stuff as possible and use the suggestion as much as possible.

[Loki]

I agree that the more you add pre-determined aspects to a show, the more it runs the risk of appearing scripted or preplanned. While many aspects of characterization and format exist to create a stylized show, in most cases (specifically with format) it's used as a guide to create a naturalistic flow and to keep the players on track. In this regard, I think the heavy-handed patterns of a form like the Harold serves newer players well as they are discovering the dynamics of the ensemble they've created. And while I've witnessed several exceptions, newer groups don't necessarily have the consistency to have audiences believing what they're putting on stage is scripted.

What I think is interesting is that you'll see the trip-ups, hesitation, anxiousness and other red herrings decrease (ideally) and at the same time, you'll see a lot of groups begin to open up to playing looser, trying new things and putting themselves in a position to surprise one another and the audience on a much grander scale. I think if done well, you get a sort of cycloid curve where when going from a tight form with a loose cast growing into a loose form with a tight cast, the audience's belief/disbelief is fairly consistent and becomes less about the show that's onstage and what you're doing right/wrong and more about their own disbeliefs and apprehension they're bringing with them before sitting down.

That said, the improviser in me loves to see an unusual or even standard form executed well, but the audience goer in me loves nothing more than loosey-goosey play that just gets knocked out of the park, regardless of formulaic technical achievement. There's some about talented, experienced improvisers just going out and playing that simply captures the whole spirit improv. Whereas many times really talented people doing complex forms comes off (at least to me) as sort of preening for the insiders who can appreciate that complexity.

And as a final thought, I really hate when groups don't get any kind of suggestion from the audience. Immediately I'm less invested in what's going to happen and it cheapens the audience experience for me.

[buseman]

Some friends from NYC saw Fletcher the other week and had never seen improv before. One friend said something along the lines of "ok, well i know it's improvised but when you rehearsed that car scene, did you know when you would do it in the show?"
WHAT?
I told her that all happened in the moment, and she said she got it, but I don't think she did.
Another friend thought it was strange because two people called out the same suggestion for Illegal Refill. As if they hired plants in another city.
It also took my parents a few months of me performing to stop asking me "what are you going to be doing tonight?" before a show.
So, while I think it's important to give a short explanation of what we're doing before starting, I also think it might be up to the audience to make up their own mind and come back to see more improv. Maybe once they see the same group a few times they will be convinced.

[Holmes]

People are stupid.
I'm going to start over-explaining the fact that it's all made up right there without any planning and that that's what improv is.

[El Jefe]

Originally Posted by benzado

Usually the conversation starts with a question like, "How do you know which people are going to do which parts?" I say, We don't! Then I explain how it works with the sports analogy, and usually the person is my friend, and so they either understand or only pretend to understand, and we continue to drink beer.

I always use the sports analogy, too, to explain how we "rehearse." (We practice the skills, but every game is different.)

Beyond that, I don't know what to say. Does it really *sound* scripted to anyone? I'm getting to the point now that I can tell by watching most movies what is scripted, what's improvised, and what's somewhere in-between.

[El Jefe]

Originally Posted by Loki

And as a final thought, I really hate when groups don't get any kind of suggestion from the audience. Immediately I'm less invested in what's going to happen and it cheapens the audience experience for me.

Really? Have you seen TJ & Dave?

[Jennings]

At CSZ we explain improv as the standard opening of the show- still people don't believe. When we play 5 Things many audience members believe we have either rehearsed or cheat to get the suggestions. We even have an audience volunteer go outside with the guessing player to verify that in fact we do not cheat and still audience members think we cheat.

At LLD we used to explain not only long form improv vs short form but the 'forms' we would do were different one form another and in what ways. A very long time ago we even had the descriptions printed in a program in addition to spoken intro and still people didn't get it and believed we had pre-scripted the show.

Karen and I have an even more difficult time with audience members accepting that we are improvising when we do C & G becuase we ARE trying to blend more traditional theater with improv.

The common conclusion that CSZ / LLD / C & G came to was that it is not our job to convince anyone we are improvising. It is only our job to improvise to the best of our ability. There are always going to be disbelievers. YOU know what you do is improvised so why does it matter what others believe.

Karen and I have started to view the disbelievers as a kind of gauge of how well we did. If a lot of people walk out thinking the show was scripted then we know we accomplished what we wanted to do, that is an entirely improvised show that is as seamless as a well rehearsed scripted show.

[mikelibrarian]

Originally Posted by El Jefe

I always use the sports analogy, too, to explain how we "rehearse." (We practice the skills, but every game is different.)

Same here.

[Hawkins]

Originally Posted by Loki

And as a final thought, I really hate when groups don't get any kind of suggestion from the audience. Immediately I'm less invested in what's going to happen and it cheapens the audience experience for me.

myself and BOC don't, mostly because we think whatever's bugging us is far more interesting and connects us to the audience more than trying to think of ways to use "popcorn" as a jumping off point.

As noted earlier, I think TJ and Dave, or Adsit and Sagher do phenomenal shows and make very interesting choices without the suggestion.

Getting a suggestion is no proof that things are improvised. My former shortform theater's mainstage show was virtually the same show every week, with the suggestion shoehorned into scenes to make it appear made up. I worked the light booth, bored the hell out of me compared to the student shows. The private joke was if you were doing the Saturday 9, if you had your "script" memorized.

[Holmes]

Originally Posted by Hawkins

Getting a suggestion is no proof that things are improvised. My former shortform theater's mainstage show was virtually the same show every week, with the suggestion shoehorned into scenes to make it appear made up. I worked the light booth, bored the hell out of me compared to the student shows. The private joke was if you were doing the Saturday 9, if you had your "script" memorized.

That is a big point, and perhaps where some of this comes from.
Does the set-up of certain improv (Whose Line go-to's for example) create confusion for the audience about what's pre-planned?

[Toastface]

who cares? just do a good show and fuck'em if they wanna hate

[Amie? Amie!]

Originally Posted by buseman

Another friend thought it was strange because two people called out the same suggestion for Illegal Refill. As if they hired plants in another city.
It also took my parents a few months of me performing to stop asking me "what are you going to be doing tonight?" before a show.
So, while I think it's important to give a short explanation of what we're doing before starting, I also think it might be up to the audience to make up their own mind and come back to see more improv. Maybe once they see the same group a few times they will be convinced.

as the person taking that suggestion, i want to point out that that suggestion had CLEARLY BEEN REHEARSED and PLANNED...how else could two people have said it at nearly the same time? audience, when i ask you to say what comes to mind just off the top of your head, i mean it. oh, and don't tell me that two people in the audience somehow *magically* both had the word "recession" in the fore of their minds.

also, if i were going to hire plants for shows i play, i'd pay them to shout out suggestions that clearly opened the door for me to play all the great pre-rehearsed, completely fleshed out characters i've been developing. also, alexis and i have a great scripted scene about snake pee that we are dying to "improvise." so please, do a sister a favor and shout out "snake pee" at our next show.

also, just between us "improvisers," pm me if you have any particular "suggestions" you'd like me to shout out at your next show so that you can "completely make up" awesome scenes about them. i make a great "audience member" and will "laugh hysterically" at your "spontaneously generated scene work."

[Ross Bergman]

I've been told by more than a few people who saw the folks from Whose Line Is It Anyway perform two shows back-to-back at their college… that both shows were virtually identical.