Should you be on the top bill?

[darcy]

Hey all,
I've got some questions that I'm having a hard time with figuring out myself. It's about my groups performance with some others.

So we're putting out our first show. All of the members of the group have been improvising for years in one form or another, but as this group we are now (Boombox Improv) we've done 3 shows. This will be the first time we have put on a show ourselves rather than being hosted by another.

We are putting in a lot of effort into the night (doing some afternoon workshops, drop in jam, etc), and this will be the first time we'll make some cash (a goal I have is to also pay the other performing groups....I said before ourselves, but that got voted out). The thing is, we will be performing with 3 other groups, 2 of which have a larger draw and a bigger name to themselves. ALL groups are given a 30-45 minute time block and, aside from the poster, there isn't officially a 'headliner'.
If we follow this, I've got us performing second, right before intermission. I had figured this would be fine. I was speaking to one of the other members of Boombox today and they were under the impression and REALLY want to perform last.
THEIR opinion is that, why should we do all of this hard work and put on a show if we aren't going to get the last spot? This is OUR show so we should have the top billing.
MY opinion was that, while I do understand where they are coming from, it shouldn't really matter. The two other groups ARE a bigger name in town and that's why I gave them a larger spot on the poster and a later time block.
I feel that, as long as all groups are rockin' (which they are), and they all have the same amount of performance time, it shouldn't matter.

What should I do? I understand where he is coming from, but I don't feel that it is correct. I do think that a more well-known group, even if we are putting on the show, should be given a spot relative to the amount of time and energy they've spent doing past work.

[qnarf]

those groups are doing you a favor, bringing you an audience.
return the favor.

[Lostfolio]

Top billing is for the biggest act. The purpose of all marketing (and billing is marketing) is to put asses in seats. If one of the other groups is a bigger draw, then they should get top billing and go last. It's not about who gets a star on their door, it's about making money so that you can do more shows.

It's not Show Friends, it's Show Business.

[Adali Stevenson]

Dirty secret: The reason the group with the biggest crowd goes last is so that their crowd won't get up and leave during your show.

[Holmes]

I recently did a show that had several acts.
The group hosting went first, did a shorter set, didn't bring a big crowd, and rocked their timeslot, leading to heaps of praise, respect for showing respect, and more bookings.

Whether you go first or last, whatever your timeslot is, however big the crowd is, do your best.

I've done shows with smaller, newer groups and I've done shows with bigger, better groups. I've hosted and been hosted. I've opened and I've headlined. I've been unoffended by a group saying that I'd be opening for them, and I've been surprised by a bigger group even offering that they'd open for me. Bottom line with everything is "don't be a dick."

The best (biggest) act gets the best (most of the time last, sometimes prime) slot.

[kevhines]

If you have 3 groups, the best spot is 2nd. You get to perform for the latecomers (also known as jerks) and for anyone who can't sit through 3 shows (also known as wimps).

So if folks in your group want to go third - well that seems odd. Should the best team go last? I guess. But that's subjective. I think the most popular group should go last. But you might know who's there for what before the show.

I'd say don't go first (under normal circumstances) and everything should be fine. I also don't think it matters if one week you go first, and another you go last. None of that matters.

As far as posters and promotion. I think your group should get a fair amount of the press. I mean play up any 'draw' teams as well, but you want folks to know even though they cam to see the Popular Group, that the show was yours. So when you have another show there at least is a chance folks start thinking, hey that group puts on a good show. They book good teams and they're pretty funny too!

Alternatively the show itself can have a title, but that confuses my simple mind. Just call the show whatever your group's name is.

Rogue Elephant's show may have had different names over the year (makeout party at one point) but I always referred to it as the Rogue Elephant show.

[Hawkins]

Also if you're local and you're bringing in out of town groups, it's courtesy

[goldfish boy]

If your group is having ego issues with putting the bigger draws at the top of the bill, you could arrange it so your group, as the host, does a little two or three-minute bit to open and close the show. That way you can clearly brand it as "your" show even though the more experienced teams with bigger followings get (and should get) the prime full-length slots.

[AgentSnazz]

This is the first show you're managing yourselves, and the problem you're running into is a simple conflict of interest. When it comes to billing and advertising, you should separate yourself from the 'ego' of the group.

You don't get your name in a bigger font because you want it; everybody wants it.

Your goal is to fill seats, that means the names that will fill the most seats should be pretty darn big in any advertisements. Failing that, make everything equally big so people people see it as an all-star lineup, rather than an opener/headliner situation.

If you feel like you're group deserves some recognition, then smack a "Presented by: TehAwesomeImprovers" on your advertisements, and make sure the MC relays the same information to the audience.

[Mr. Kwako]

I disagree. If you don't believe that your group is good enough to deserve the headlining spot, why do you believe you're ready to have your own show?

Evel Cathedral headlined Ash Wednesday for four years. Did we believe we were the best group on the bill every week? Of course not. We hosted superstars up there. We'd be giddy some weeks knowing who was going to play. But it was our show. We started it with our hellos and our charming banter and we ended it with our mind-blowing improv set. It might have been possible or even probable going in that we weren't going to have the best set of the night, but who cares? We were going to have the set that put the stamp on the show and said, "This is the show we call Ash Wednesday. We might not have Primal Bias or Warth & Todd next week, but we'll have something else. This is the show called Ash Wednesday, and it's hosted by Evel Cathedral."

You're doing your show. Do it fearlessly and proudly.

[Sammy]

If this is a long term production i.e. one that is potentially open-ended, I say you bill and book yourself as the closing group. The simple fact of the matter is that YOU are creating and providing opportunities for the other groups to perform, YOU are putting your money and time on the line and YOU are creating a new brand (YOUR show) on the scene. I don't think any one will begrudge you closing/headline status if it's your show, and if they do, they're more than free to perform somewhere else. Furthermore, if it's a long-term thing, you might as well stamp it as your night from the get go.

Don't sell yourself short. Work your ass off offstage and act as if you can't fail onstage and things will sort themselves out.

Yes, you have the potential for walkouts for people who are just there for their friends, but if you have their money, does it matter? And if it's a habitual problem, you don't have to book that group or deal with their audience again.

(side note the first: 30-45 minute slots per group in a 3 group line up? yikes, isn't that just a bit too much improv for ANY audience, even with intermission?)

If this sounds a bit aggressive, here's my experience--my group, Bella, hosts a long-running night of improv, The Sandbox Improv Showcase. We've been doing a show a week every week for little over 2 years. We usually have 2 opening acts and then us in the closer spot, with the opening acts getting 22-ish minutes and Bella anywhere from 25-30 minutes. We've always closed. Always. We book the ensembles, we advertise the night and we run the show. If you're an awesome team that rocks their show, that just inspires us to play even harder in our closing set. If you bring a huge house, we just feed off the energy and do our damndest to make your friends laugh at the end of the night.

Have we had some audience leave? Sure, but it's never been a chronic problem...and if it ever was we'd either move that team to second if they opened, talk with the team directly and see if there was anything we could do to keep their folks there (other than giving them the closing slot) or, the nuclear option, just not book that group again. Conversely, we've had the audience members of other teams tell us they came to Team X's show that night only because they knew we would be there too. We've even earned some regular audience for our shows from other group's audience pools.

On the bright and cheery positive side of things, work hard and play hard and good things will happen. Bring the enthusiasm and excitement you have for this night into your performance and hosting and the audience will be there right with you.

On the purely mercenary side of things, you are providing a limited opportunity (a performance slot) and you hold the cards. If Guest Team Awesome balks at not closing, then you can always book Cool New Side Project that is looking for a venue to debut in and is just happy to be onstage...and Guest Team Awesome can buy tickets to see them.

(side note the second: Bella is usually outdrawn by our guest teams, one group in particular, Rhythm Method, brings so many people we actually run out of seats in the theater and bring the stage chairs into the house for folks to sit in...but we still close)

(side note the third: The Sandbox is a bit unique in Chicago in that the evening's rent is split among the ensembles, but once an ensemble covers its portion of rent through ticket sales, they keep every dollar after that. We've had groups walk out with a couple hundred bucks in profit and we've had others bring no house and eat the loss.)

[kevhines]

I get folks wanting to close, I guess. But I don't think it matters.

When I got to shows, folks come out and introduce the first team, and then they eventually do a show. I know it's their show. I enjoy the groups that are good, and not the ones that are bad. And I leave. I know who's show it was. I don't feel they were slighted if they didn't close.

I felt the same when I've been a part of those shows, and for the ones where my team hosted those.

I personally feel like performing 2nd to last gets you a better audience, but I guess their is a clout with going last.

I just don't think it matters that much.

[qnarf]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kwako

I disagree. If you don't believe that your group is good enough to deserve the headlining spot, why do you believe you're ready to have your own show?

Evel Cathedral headlined Ash Wednesday for four years. Did we believe we were the best group on the bill every week? Of course not. We hosted superstars up there. We'd be giddy some weeks knowing who was going to play. But it was our show. We started it with our hellos and our charming banter and we ended it with our mind-blowing improv set. It might have been possible or even probable going in that we weren't going to have the best set of the night, but who cares? We were going to have the set that put the stamp on the show and said, "This is the show we call Ash Wednesday. We might not have Primal Bias or Warth & Todd next week, but we'll have something else. This is the show called Ash Wednesday, and it's hosted by Evel Cathedral."

You're doing your show. Do it fearlessly and proudly.

as the warthy one, thanks, it was always a pleasure.
but schweds had an audience that would come to see schweds/cathedral. darcy's show doesn't have that. it's new, it has no built in house, and unlike cathedral, the team setting it up has done three shows. in darcy's case, the people who are coming to play are the draw, not the host team. i think, given that, there's very little reward for the teams doing the bringing beyond the slot they play in and the stage time they get, which they could probably arrange for themselves with a minimum amount of effort.
i think it's awesome darcy's team is doing this show, and i hope it's a success, i would just defer to the experience and audience bringing that the other groups can do, and give them a tangible thanks for it.

[Lostfolio]

I think it depends on the goal of your marketing - if the goal is to get as big a crowd as possible, then the most well known group should headline. If it's to make everyone in the group feel good, then you guys should.

[mike short]

Originally Posted by AgentSnazz

If you feel like your group deserves some recognition, then smack a "Presented by: TehAwesomeImprovers" on your advertisements, and make sure the MC relays the same information to the audience.

I was going to say something similar. Name the show "My Awesome Group Presents: These Other Awesome Groups." Then order the show however you want. That way everyone hears your name, and sees a quality show.

There's a lot of factors I could imagine about courtesy, professionalism, and whether or not this will be an ongoing thing. I think at this point in your group's life, getting your name out there in a positive way is the best thing you can do. So, if the larger-draw crowd goes after you, then that means that a larger crowd has definitely seen your show too, instead of maybe skipping out when their favorite group is done. Now they see you, and now your name is out there in a positive way.

[Holmes]

Imagine a local band that isn't that well-known booking a show with some big group that people would know and have heard their CD, but then you go to the show and the local group is the headliner and ...Pearl Jam or whatever is the opening act.

[the improv FROG]

Great ideas from the people that posted before me! I agree with most of what has been said. Especially about the audienc (following) of the poplular groups WILL get up and leave after their group is done.
Only thing I can add, is you have four groups each taking 30-40 minutes? I would get all others besides the closing act to cut thier time to twentyish.

[Silvija]

I have no advice. I just wanted to say thank you for this thread.... I find it fascinating to read about how things work outside of New York.

The Pearl Jam metaphor to me is especially fascinating. There are improv groups that have that kind of following? I mean, I get that it's an analogy, but what kind of numbers are we talking about here? Like, does the "Pearl Jam" team bring in 100 people and the hosting team bring a dozen? Or does the Pearl Jam team bring 15 and the hosting team bring their 2 significant others, if they can get off work?

Sorry if these are distasteful questions. I ask out of sheer curiosity and ignorance, not maliciousness.

[Holmes]

Silvija, I think the Pearl Jam metaphor can be scaled to fit different situations.

For example, in a smaller city with a not-that-big improv following, one group that's been around for a few years and built a following might get invited to perform with a small new group. It might be weird for the big group not to headline when 90 of the 100 people in the audience came to see them.

You could say the same thing for ImprovBoston bringing TJ and Dave or Baby Wants Candy to perform but having one of their house teams be the headliner because it's their show and they're hosting (this is just a hypothetical example).

[darcy]

The venue we're in is 50-seater. To describe our improv scene: a regular improv show with these acts will probably draw around 50 people or so. Come festival time or larger out of town acts we can fill a 150-seater venue, but regular shows aren't always as packed.

We've sort of dealt with the issue. One of the groups is a spokenword-improv duo. They are going to split up their set into 3 10-minute acts which will also have a bit of hosting duties. This way we are right in the middle of program.
I think the other guy in the group has come around. I was explaining to him that we should be striving to be be putting on shows with other awesome groups together and be a part of an amazing community, rather than just one group always putting on shows.