It's crunch time for the camera

[mullaney]

I'm going to be purchasing a DV camera very shortly. I believe that I'm going to get either an XL-1 or the PD-150 from Sony (the VX2000 is still a contender).

The prices at Broadway Video in Brooklyn look pretty good--much better the the prices at B&H in midtown. Anyone have any last minute advice? Anyone ever deal with Broadway Video?

[funnyerik9]

For all questions like this I usually go to www.indieclub.com. They're a bunch of film geeks who politely answer questions such as this. You'll get lots of responses about which camera is better to which lens is good and everything in between, including where to find good bargains on cameras and equipment.

Go to their message board.

-Erik

[Topher Polack]

We had a good experience buying our old Sony from B&H for my old job. (Until it was stolen. You Bastards!) You are in good company with either camera. Familiarize yourself with both cameras. Go to the stores and PLAY with them for a while.

[Phil]

a friend of mine who's a doc cameraman recommends the PD-150. i've used doyle's XL-1 and loved it, but apparently the PD-150 is all the rage with professional camera folk.

phil

[Topher Polack]

Phil, you are very correct in your assemnet of the PD-150. I really don't think you can go wrong with the new high end cameras.

[ptolemy]

dont buy without checking abe's of maine
they are in brooklyn
and are often the best
http://abesofmaine.com/

as for cameras -
i recommend the GL1
i see you are looking at the XL1 and the Sony
and if money is no object then go with it
but my recomendation is thus - go with the GL1 and use the funds on excellent sound equipment
the immage quality is going to be virtually identical to the other two for your purposes

the sony will have more clarity (lines of resolution) but, in my opinion, the color on the cannons completly outweighs that
these are not going to be broadcast quality / film work cameras
they are great immage for very little money
until you are ready to spend tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands - i recommend the GL1

its also (again, in my opinion) eaiser to use than the XL1
which - if this is your first camera, will have an effect

thats what i would say

[mullaney]

I think that if I was going to take the route to save a little money and wait to get the big bad camera til later, I would just get a 1 CCD DV camera -- maybe even look for one under a $1000. I think I'd rather go for a more professional camera and build up a great system one component at a time.

[ptolemy]

gl1 - $1849
xl1 - $3299
pd150 - $3575

you will be saving 1450 - 1726
if you have another 1500 to invest elsewhere than this is not an issue
but the GL1 immage does NOT look inferior
there will not be as much control or depth of field
but i guarntee - you put the same money toward camera and better lighting kit and the image will be superior

have you heard the GL1 is not as good?

i dont know
i dont know your application
so i cant say with certianty
(i.e. if you are planning to hire someone to run the camera when you shoot / how in depth you are planning to get)
but there is so little GL1 cant do that the others can
at the stores, even on boards and everything - you are talking to people who deal in the minutia of digital cameras
if you are planning to go there - than cool
but for application and use, there is such a negligible difference

thats what i have experieced

but, again, if money is not an issue than go for it
(it seems like it is an issue, but if its not go ahead)
THROW YOUR MONEY AWAY FOR SOME PEACE OF MIND THAT YOU WILL NEVER PUT INTO PRACTICAL APPLICATION
i dont care
i cant save the world

[ptolemy]

also

i have a GL1
(if you cant tell)
feel free to borrow it for a few days
see what you think

[mullaney]

Here is one difference between the GL1 and XL1 (PD 150 also) - XLR audio inputs. Basically the higher quality cameras are ready for better audio input. I plan on investing in a variety of good mics over time, I'd rather not fuss with adapters. There are other differences. Frankly, I don't think I understand them well enough to logically explain them. However they have to do with control of the lens and exposure. I used to be a photographer you see. And one of the reasons that I never got too involved with consumer video in the past, was the frustration over how little control I had over the actual picture. My understanding is that the XL1 and PD-150 will give me better control of the picture I'm trying to capture. These are more conclusions from lots of conversations than well reasoned positions.

Why don't we ask Phil why he is trading up from a GL1 to an what an XL1?

P.S. I hear you about the lights. My answer is that I will buy some good lights as well, probably sooner than later. Like I said, I want to build up a complete package. I'd rather not buy a GL1 or a VX-2000 and then buy another, better camera in a year.

[ptolemy]

i may have been unclear on the 'get better camera later' topic
the next 'better camera' [DVcam] starts around 65 thousand
im not suggesting buying more than one or needing to buy more than one camera in this bracket (the under $5000 area)

i agree with the XLR argument if you dont want to deal with adapters
(which seems strange since you are putting so much time and energy into this already)
but there are deffinately other ways
this is an article on XL1 sound
its good
http://www.dvinfo.net/xl1.htm
(if you REALLY want XLR on it you will need adapters anyhow)

also the pd 150 has had audio issues
(from what i have seen)
http://www.videouniversity.com/wwwboard/vx1000/messages/9910.html

from: http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0007/videosmith.htm ...
"I’m happy the new cameras have improved AGC, but the VX-1000 was never hissy in manual audio, so why should the 150 suffer this problem - Canon has amply demonstrated a rapid responsiveness to problems that cropped up with the XL1. They were listening to their customers.* Sony seems to have taken the opposite point of view - they are not going to fix the problem. At this point, if you want clean audio on the 2000/150 you’ll have to use the auto. It’s a decent circuit, almost as good as the one on the GL1, but what a disappointment for this long-awaited product to have such a flaw."

i too am comming from a photo background
but if you want to "control" the lense manually
(which would be awesome - i agree)
you will need a different lense for the XL1 from the one that it comes with
which starts at around 1500
ANOTHER $1500

but seriously - to me that money would sink me
it sounds like you may be able to invest more money over time than i think i am interested in doing
in that case deffinately go with XL1
it has so many options for that kind of approach

here is my position -
by the time you are using any of these cameras proficently
the main difference is going to be content
the story you are shooting and how you choose to shoot it
an interesting piece shot on a GL1 will kick the ass of an uninteresting piece shot on pd-150, XL1 or GL1 for that matter
everything else is negligeble
its is totally important to get educated about the products, how you plan to use them, their advantages and disadvantages - the details
but what is MOST important is the story
beleive me
ive seen things shot on VHS that stick with me as long as anything else
the rest of this is all a servent to the story
thats what i have to say

[mullaney]

I'm not sure what we are arguing about. Let's just put it this way. I looked at the GL1. I don't like it.

[tanouye]

I don't own either a GL1 or XL1, but in using other people's, I've preferred the GL1's versatility. It gave me a lot more freedom to get shots I wanted. The stuff I shot on the XL1 felt more static.

I think if I had been trained on standard non-digital cameras, the XL1 would have felt more natural in its heft and size.

I miss the GL1.

[Phil]

kevin,

I'm actually trading in my GL-1 for a VX-2000 for the sole reason that VX-2000 has a manual zoom, which I'd like to have. Otherwise, the GL-1 and VX-2000 seem basically the same.

phil

[ptolemy]

are we arguing?
i was just trying to clarify what i was talking about

what have you
they are all good cameras
they will provide fruitful and successful endeavors

[Spiro]

ptolemy--where did you get that kind of price for vx-2000? pay no more than $2450+shipping for that thing

first of all if you get the pd-150a, make sure you get the upgrade, because they correct a problem. when the auto gain control is disabled there's excessive hiss. actually all these stupid camcorders have that problem. the pd-150's main strengths are 2 phantom powered xlr inputs and depending on whether or not you like it dv-cam speed tape. you can do sp or lp mode but if you do dvcam speed it's like 40 minutes per $7 tape. but you get better "synch-sound" or whatever. also the pd-150 has the independently adjustable r/l audio levels

the vx-2000 doesn't have the nice gunmetal grey or the xlr inputs but buy a $40-70 beachtek xlr adapter and screw it on the bottom of the camera. Put the money you save into a boom mic and pole, a battery pack, light, stand, gaff tape, and a coupla big reflectors. the vx2000 is a very unobtrusive camera, at least in comparison to the xl-1. when people see the xl-1 they think, "pro", so if you are shooting something important without a permit you are better off with the sony.

GL-1 can suck it for not having manual zoom... so many more people have VX-2000's. so if you are the odd man out with the gl-1 you have to deal with gamma correction, color balancing, etc...