Mac/PC editing dilemma

[mullaney]

So in the coming months I am going to begin acquiring equipment: camera, lights, mics and of course a editing system (time to upgrade my computer anyway), and I am facing the perennial dilemma: PC or Mac. I have always preferred a PC system because the software I needed for work was PC based and because of the much greater variety of software available for PC (yep, including games). However it seems clear that a Mac is better for editing DV. However, I'm still having trouble giving up the idea of owning a PC...

One possible solution that a friend recently suggested was the following:

Get a Mac G4 and make that a dedicated machine and only put editing related software on that machine. Also get a relatively cheap PIII PC for all my other computer needs and then get one monitor, keyboard and mouse to use with both. I'm told that the device that allows you to switch between computers for one monitor, keyboard and mouse is relatively cheap. What do you think about this option?

[Curjay]

I don't do a lot of editing on MAC, (I have a P3 600 with 55 gig firewire hardrive, running on win 2000), but if your PC system is running on win NT or 2000 (built on NT platform) I think the difference is negligable. My PC edits great. Hasn't crashed yet.

Macs definitely USED to be better for editing and graphic arts, etc...but I think PC's have finally caught up. Macs just have the reputation.

-Curtis

[goldfish boy]

The magazines seem to concur with Curtis.

[youngcat]

I am going to ask this because one of the things I love about reading these posts in this forum is that I am clueless about DV technology, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

What happens if Kevin goes strictly PC, and then, halfway through, or at some point in the process, he has to look outside for help? Say he has to go to an editing house, or hire someone to come in and help finish?

IF MAC is industry standard, does that make a difference? Reason being is a lot of people end up starting off thinking they can do it all themselves (And I'm not saying you can't, Kevin) and invariably, they end up hiring someone to help with the edit. (I've seen it happen to a number of friends). I guess what I'm saying is can you take a film you start on PC and edit it on MAC?

[pickle jar]

Hey Kevin - I'm in the same boat as you! Been on PCs forEVER, but I just got my camera.....and my boyfriend has a G4. I'm buying an extra hard drive to store stuff on his machine, but if we ever break up I'm screwed!

or.....not......actually.

I'm seriously thinking of switching over to Mac-land, despite the magazines.

[mullaney]

The problem I have with having one machine is that I have noticed that my PC gets funkier with every new program I put on it. I kind of like the idea of having a MAC that I keep pristine with only a handful of programs, and a PC where I install everything and anything.

[youngcat]

Kevin,

If you can afford it, I would think the MAC/PC idea is a best of both worlds situation. Of course, The money for a MAC could be used for other things, as well...

[Bernie]

I have a PC. I edit on Premiere. Haven't done much, but it seems to as well if not better than what you could do with Final Cut on Mac. My roommate is a film buff, and he swears by premiere on PC.

I do know that you could get similar hardware to a G4 for a hell of a lot cheaper. I think there are also lots of people who know Premiere (Tom Blake edited his short for Leche Magica on Premiere). So you could get help. Hope that helps ya'll...

-Bernie

[Armando Diaz]

You should talk to Tom Blake and Victor Vernardo. Blake edited his piece on a pc and Victor uses them as well. I think another advantage is PC is cheaper.

[fuzzy]

I do all my editing on an iMac DV and I love it. But PCs are fine. If you have the money for two machines, how much even better -- you can still get a firewire card for the PIII and then have two editing capable machines. You can capture on one and edit on the other at the same time.

Also a factor to consider is the "friend who will fix your computer at midnight" question. Ask your smartest computer friend what kind of computer they use and then get one of those.

Fuzzy

[mullaney]

What do people think of this option:

A single PC with a two boot system. I can boot up Windows 2000 for film editing or I can optionally boot up Windows ME for internet browsing, word processing and gaming. That way I still have a stable and "pristine" system for editing and I spend that extra G4 money on a better monitor, camera and some lights.

Thoughts?

[fuzzy]

Sounds good. I'd put three drives in the system:

a cheap drive for the General use system (though, if you're going to be using win2000 for editing, why not just use that for your general use system, too? It's fine for games, and you don't have to keep track of two different drivers for every peripheral).

an OK quality drive for the editing system and applications

a super-fast drive for the dv files.

[Ducko5]

If it comes down to preference, I've used both and I find the mac to be INFINITELY better then the PC. I just love it. and if you have a program that MUST have windows, you can get virtual PC and run it with that.

[mullaney]

You've used both to edit DV?

Hmm... infinitely better? In what way? What software were you using?

[Bernie]

Dual boot is good. Although you should be able to browse the net on win2000 sufficiently with out screwing up your editing system. Just don't go nuts with the plugins and such...

[cheesebot]

Hey Kevin,

I rebuilt my editing setup about 8 months ago.
Now I am very biased as I have been using Macs since 1984.


About two years ago I bought a PC...I figured it seemed to be the thing to do finally....two years later I have taken a bat to the infernal thing.

Right now I have a desktop G4 with over 180 gigs internal, a serial port (to control my dv deck), and I am having a love affair with Final Cut Pro....the glory of airport allows me to have a mini network going through my house, sans wires.

If you don't need extreme power, Apple has lowered the price of its iMac DV to $899.00
I challenge anyone to find a pc system that is ready to edit out of the box for that price. If you need extra storage space, Maxtor makes a wonderful 80gb drive for 399.00.

You can also pick up last year's G4's starting in the low 1,000.00's...

Or you can reach total nirvana and break the bank for the glory that I am typing on now....the Titanium G4.....it is friggin' unbelievable...

In summation...MAC MAC MAC
especially with the intro of OS X....making the most stable system in the world even more stable...
If you need more advice/abuse e-mail me at:

scottgoldstein@mac.com

P.S. I'll be in NY for a wedding the Weekend of April 22....
I should be coming in that Wed.....meet for drinks?

Goldstein

[mullaney]

I know people are very partial to their Macs. I too have used them since the very first models back in '84. Mac's are great, but I'm still wondering... What was the problem you were having with the PC?

The only problem I've had with PC's is stability, a problem for which I squarely blame windows 95/98. However, as for ease of use and general functionality, I really think the various windows platforms beat MacOS. And if Windows 2000 is as stable as I think it is, the only question becomes is the software available for the Mac that much better than the software available for the PC?

[TerryJ]

I have to say...that for anything Internet related (browsing, usenet, email, HTML), I prefer a PC. However, for anything graphic related (photoshop, illustrator) I prefer a Mac. That also goes for video editing.

(Of course, this is not a problem, as I just got one of each.)

I'm not sure exactly why my preferences fall across those lines. The real difference to me, I suppose, is how the screen refreshes and the interface responds. For whatever reason, the Mac GUI seems more precise (or 'cleaner', whatever that means) when dealing with graphic elements. That may just be me...being more comfortable with the Mac interface, of course.

(I think Java and web browsers, etc., however, are better implemented on PCs...so I think that explains that.)

I think another reason I prefer Macs for the video work is that the hardware setup is minimal. Even for someone who knows (or thinks they know!) their way around hardware, it's just nice to have Firewire support built-in and ready to go...and adding memory and extra harddrives was worry-free. No driver mayhem. Dual monitor support is easy with the Mac (although probably is easier now with Win2000)...just install a second video board and plug in the monitor.

And...I'm not sure how EditDV or Premiere 6 is, but Final Cut Pro is, I dare say, fun to use...and that is Mac-only.

I just got Final Cut Pro version 2.0 in the mail yesterday, by the way, but I haven't played around with it yet.

So...yeah...for video...I like Macs.

-Terry

[cheesebot]

Kevin-

My problem with the PC was not only stability, but what I felt was an inefficiency and general hatred of windows....

Not much time to type today, but OS X should make you very freakin' happy, and improve upon the classic Mac OS quite a bit....

And I never have had web problems on a mac


Goldstein

[Wingsofdesire]

OK, I was the one who suggested, to Kevin, the dual Mac/PC Option. One monitor two CPU's. I am partial to Macs but had to purchase a PC because of my work. Also I use my PC for email word processing etc. It makes my life easier when trading files and attachments with others. In the 1 and ½ years I have had my PC I have had more problems with it than in the 5 years I have had my Macs. My biggest bone of contention is that Macs are way more user friendly when it comes to fixing problems than a PC. (The registry scares me and I never really know what to do when in safe mode.) Enough ranting now to the real issue.

Whether you buy a Mac or a PC is not really the point. You really should have a separate system for your editing application. Whether it be a 2nd CPU or a second hard drive in the same CPU. As Kevin pointed out the more apps he adds the funkier his system gets. ( I have been having the same problem on my PC. Macs are good at letting you know which applications are conflict)

Mac vs. PC: Find out if you can get all you need in a PC with out having to add additional hardware. If a fully loaded DV-ready PC is less than a Mac then go for it. But if you have to add any additional pieces (i.e. spend more money) so that it is up to speed to a even a low priced DV-ready Mac then take a minute and pause. As Cheesebot pointed out the Mac is "red to go" out of the box.

As for software Adobe Premiere is a fine program (and runs on both Macs and PCs) and cost less than Final Cut Pro. But for it to be comparable to Final Cut Pro you really need to also purchase Adobe After Effects. Thus making the cost about the same as FCP. (p.s. You can download tryout versions of Premiere and Edit DV)

I got a Blue and White G3 barely used for $800 almost year ago (new they were still around $1300). You can get a very good to decent used G3 or G4 Mac that will serve your editing needs. Check out place like Tekserve, Egads, or Digital Society.

Also for the PC devotee check out http://www.videoguys.com/

[Dan Powell]

Looks like people have plenty of information, but I just wanted to chime in my support for Mac in terms of DV editing. They seem to run much more smoothly and are more user-friendly.

Peace,
D

[11pies]

And I'll chime in my non-support for PCs in terms of DV editing. We started DV editing on my friends' new, top-of-the-line Dell right out of the box, using VideoWave. It crashed at least once a day. And there were a ton of silly nuances of Windows that we had to learn -- e.g. Having both VideoWave audio board and Windows Media Player open at the same time will insist that your computer reboot.

[Top Cat]

Kevin, either system will do fine for video editing. I think it comes down to what you are more comfortable with. If you are currently working off a PC, I don't see the need to break from that.

But support of the mac system is infitely easier. If you have problems on the mac, it will take a shorter time to bring it back up. If this is a home machine that might not matter much.

[kprobbins]

Adobe Premiere and Adobe After Effects are the next best thing to having an Avid system in your bedroom. Macs are very limited in their support for Adobe products from third-party developers. they are supported equally, however, by Adobe itself.

But say, for instance, you want a third-party plug-in for Premiere that makes DV look as though it was shot on film. This plug-in allows you to control very effectively and realistically levels of film grain, colour contrast, lens filters, even wether or not to apply a bleach-bypass negative processing effect to the video. I cannot remember who makes this plug-in but I know it exists. I had it when I was doing a lot of non-linear editing on PCs. I do know, however, that the plug-in was not available for Macs.

Adobe has a website devoted to DV: http://www.adobe.com/products/dvcoll/main.html

Obviously, they're going to tout their products, but that's okay since their products kick fucking ass. They also offer numerous articles and interviews from people within the business who use Premiere and After Effects as their standard in-house editors. http://www.adobe.com/products/features/premiere.html

One such company is CyberMotion (http://www.cybmotion.com), who did the opening credits for The Talented Mr. Ripley (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0134119) using After Effects and are publishing a book on the subject of film and video effects editing with it. I highly recommend reading the Adobe feature (http://www.adobe.com/motion/spotlights/mrripley/main.html) on this company.

Another company is Imaginery Forces (http://www.imaginaryforces.com/) who have done, Kyle Cooper mostly, the title credits for Mission Impossible, Ally McBeal, Forces of Nature, The Mummy, Avengers, Mask of Zorro, Sphere, Spawn, yada, yada, yada.

Many of the graphics for networks and TV show promos are done using Premiere and After Effects, such as TLC's Life Unscripted promos, ABC's show promos and Showcase's network promos.

Adobe also has an interesting article (http://www.adobe.com/motion/features/timetrials/main.html) with Mike Figgis about DV and his film Time Code. Also, an article (http://www.adobe.com/motion/features/getsmall/main.html) about The Matrix and Romeo Must Die. There was an article I read somewhere about

[TerryJ]

Actually, Apple's Final Cut Pro can use Adobe After Effects plug-ins directly.

[One of the] After Effects plug-ins that makes video look like film is Cinelook by DigiEffects. I've played around with it a bit in Final Cut Pro. Pretty cool, although takes a LONG time render (on a single processor Mac G4 400mhz) and has a crap load of control settings that makes a rather daunting task of wraping one's head around it.

http://www.digieffects.com/frames/cinelook/cinelook.html

-Terry

[kprobbins]

Right, that's the one I've used. I does appear daunting, but is incredibly useful.

What I was refering to is the fact that there are more plug-ins available for PCs than there are for Macs, not that there are more for After Effects than Final Cut Pro.

[mullaney]

Thanks for all the info everyone. I think that in the long run I will be leaning towards a Mac. I am very comfortable with both platforms and although I do prefer Windows for my day to day stuff, it seems that the Mac has a significant edge. The biggest problem with Windows (at the least the home versions--98 and ME) has been stability. I may hold out long enough for Windows XP now, I'm not sure. In the short run, I will likely get the camera first and beg for editing time from the numerous people out here with equipment.

But, keep the advice coming if anyone has any. I just wanted to acknowledge all the help so far.

[Etra]

Sounds like you may have made up your mind, but if you decide to go to the PC side I'd highly recommend software called Ghost from Norton/Symantec. It lets you very easy and effectively image your entire hard drive or selected partitions and back it up to CD-R, another hard drive, multiple zip disks, whatever. Upshot: you can create your ultimate video editing system and image it before it gets screwed up, and quickly roll it back if anything goes awry.

Plus on newer PCs, the system BIOS lets you switch between which drive it's going to boot off of without having to open the case or anything -- so if you throw 2 or 3 hard drives in there you can have one w/ your editing OS, one with your "other" OS, and a third for data or whatever. Just an idea.

-Ian

[Topher Polack]

Mullaney,

I've been working in video production for several years and what I've discovered is that the Apple computers are designed for audio and video production, even down to how they display the pixels. If you still need to run PC software for your other programs, there's a program called Virtual PC 4.0 that runs Windows on a Mac machine. The difference is it doesn't crash like PCs do. Save yourself al lot of headaches setting IRQs, defragging and ScanDisking and just get a a Mac. E-mail me if you have any technical questions.

Christopher Polack
cpolack@mac.com